Developing trust based influence takes effort and application. In this interview David talks with Scott Hunter, a consultant practitioner who has developed an interesting model of leadership influence.
Podcast: Leadership Influence with Scott Hunter
Scott Hunter – The Innovate Crowd
Scott is one of our members and he recently developed an interesting model of leadership influence.
Scott spent 18 years in the Prison Service in the UK, working with every category of prisoner. The last 4 years he was part of the national training team, delivering programmes such as Hostage Negotiation, Crisis Management, Communication and Anti-manipulation.
He left the UK Prison Service 11 years ago, working as a freelance trainer delivering HR and leadership qualifications mainly within the Middle East.
Over the last 2 years Scott has developed the Influential Leadership model*, which is designed to help leaders be build effective trust-based influence. Scott also has a background in strengths-based coaching and appreciative enquiry.
The Influential Leadership Model
Scott Hunter – Leadership influence[00:00:00] David: Today, we have Scott Hunter with us. Scott’s one of our members and he recently developed a really interesting model of leadership influence. Scott spent 18 years with the prison service in the United Kingdom, working with every category of prisoner that there is. And the last four years of his time with the prison service, he was part of the national trading team, delivering programs such as hostage negotiation, crisis management, communication, and anti-manipulation behaviors. He’s left the prison service about 11 years ago and started working as a freelance trainer delivering HR and leadership qualifications, mainly in the middle east. And the reason that he’s here today is that over the last couple of years, Scott has developed the influential leadership model, which is designed to help leaders build effective trust-based influence largely within or it’s aimed at, or seems to be aimed at SMEs or Small and Medium Enterprise. Scott also has a background in strengths-based [00:01:00] coaching and appreciative inquiry. [00:01:01] David: Welcome Scott. [00:01:02] Scott: Thank you very much for having me. David’s. It’s great to be here [00:01:04] David: … and it’s absolute pleasure. I’m really interested in learning some more about the model. Well, firstly, quite an interesting, unusual career trajectory for the kinds of people that we usually have on this podcast. Which I think we’re going to hear from about more in a little while. [00:01:18] David: Can you just start us off though? You position the model of as a influential leadership model aimed at SMEs. So, before we actually come to the model itself. Why this positioning and the context for the model of SMEs or smaller medium enterprises, and why focus on leadership influence in particular? [00:01:37] Scott: Can I flip that question around and answer it the other way round and say, why did I go for influential leadership first? A lot comes to mind that my experiences in working with people doing self leadership stuff over the last 10, 11 years say leading in the prison service over 40. And what I found is when I found the most effective way of working with people is actually to not rely on your position to influence behavior. So I think if we can develop something to help leaders not rely [00:02:00] on the fact that leaders to get things done, then that creates a much better environment for which they work and generate around them. So I think that’s generally was where it was coming from. And then also part of my backgrounds have seasons in learning and development, working places with a lot of people from L and D is that they have to influence across the whole organization without positional authority. So, if we can have people learning the skills of influence without the requirement of positional authority, I think it creates a much better working environment and context. So that’s where the influence really came from, and the perception about why I thought that would be an important element to build in. [00:02:31] David: Okay. And, did some of this therefore just kind of making, bridging inference to say, does this come from experience, leaders who were using power and position in order to lead? [00:02:42] Scott: Yeah, a bit of both really, because I think I definitely wasn’t one of those, and I found that building the relationships with prisoners and staff made the working environment much safer, interestingly enough, because the prison service works on collaboration, power, but some people think, cause I’ve got the outlets on the position, then it gives me power gives you a. [00:02:59] David: Yes. Yeah. [00:02:59] Scott: … at [00:03:00] the end of the day, but it doesn’t really give you power unless somebody willingly gives it to you, and also part of the hostage negotiation aspect was people take a hostage to give themselves perceived power in the relationship. [00:03:10] David: Yes. [00:03:11] Scott: So if you can then talk to somebody who thinks they have a perceived power where their perception is they have the power because they have the victim or they have a hostage, and you can still negotiate with that person and reverse that dy namic, you can’t do it with power. Got you. [00:03:25] David: Yes. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. And certainly coming from the context of hostage negotiation, that makes an awful lot of sense. Well you just end up, I suppose, in a kind of battering situation for this two powers, escalating the situation. [00:03:39] Scott: Yeah, hostages you’ve got to really, and again, so that’s where some models originators is, how do you develop change that dynamics of that relationship, where you get somebody to comply with your requests willingly? [00:03:50] David: Yeah. Okay, brilliant. And is there any other background that kind of led up to this work to develop the model? [00:03:57] Scott: Just talking to people as well and observing [00:04:00] people in the prison service who rely purely on authority and seeing the impact that has on the relationships they had and also is the reaction of people to them as well. So just seeing, not the negativity, the increased risks and stuff like that, and not creating such a safe environment to work in. So seeing both sides and also self-drive left, I’ve got involved in coaching and expanding your knowledge, I then read more about it. So things from people like Steven Coby Jr., Charles Feltman and the trusted advisor, and those types of people that influenced a lot around the design of the model, because there’s so much overlap of what trust. [00:04:33] David: Yeah, got it. And I think a lot of people will have be scarred by those kinds of leaders who are using position and authority in order to lead, rather than kind of trying to build trust and influence. So before we get to the model, the aim here appears to be, to get leaders of particularly SMEs, you seem to position it for SMEs to create long lasting trust-based relationships that inspire creativity and innovation. Can you just talk about [00:05:00] why that tends not to happen in SMEs? Naturally? [00:05:03] Scott: I think partly is because I did some research and read a report from the Federation of small businesses, and I can’t quote the numbers, but excuse me, people within small businesses recognize a need for training and development of them, but very few people within that field actually do any, a lot of development around their own leadership or their teams. And as small businesses grow, it tends to be people, then it’s transferring from being the person who’s the creative or having all the ideas or driving the business forward to leading other people to do that as well, and helping this person then manage the business, which is a completely different skill sets I think in that trend. And if you look at what’s normally out there, because partly this is a commercial decision as well, because obviously this is something I want to take into businesses, but I do think that, I mean, technically the model will work with any relationships. It just is the way it is, but I focusing on this group of people, cause I’ve also looking at what’s available for them, and a lot of leadership development generally is things that’s off the shelf. [00:05:54] David: Yes. [00:05:55] Scott: So price at that range and it’s things like, oh, what’s the diversity leadership and management. What is that really that important [00:06:00] for somebody trying to gel a team together and generate, or is it much more about what do we stand for? What’s important? What’s the values you want to run this business by? How can I make decisions that are aligned to that? And how can I build trust around myself and my business? Because I think your brand is your promise. [00:06:14] David: Yep. [00:06:15] Scott: People spend a lot of money on their branding and their words and they make it all look lovely. And so, how would you act consistently on a day to day basis, interaction by interaction and how is that supporting or damaging that brand record? [00:06:26] David: Yes. Yeah. Without a doubt. And also, I think it’s important what you were saying here about that phase transition, that leaders of startups and small and medium enterprises have to go through, of all of the ideas or there’s all of the innovation is there’s to handing it over where you’ve got employees who are starting to do some of that, who is starting to use some of their creativity and their skills in order to help to develop what the organisation is trying to do. And I think that, that phase transition is not an easy [00:07:00] one for a lot of entrepreneurs, because you kind of get used to, I suppose, controlling everything and being at the center of every, to handing over that the power and the authority to employees so that they’ve got autonomy and you can let them go as opposed to keep controlling them. Okay. Let’s… [00:07:17] Scott: See why wasn’t it. The baby’s growing up so all of a sudden I was like, I suppose the analogy could be, I’ll be looking after my baby, all of a sudden, I’m going to give my baby to a child. [00:07:26] David: Yeah. [00:07:26] Scott: And is that transition? Some of the development of your child is then given to somebody else. [00:07:30] David: Yep. And as you walk away, there’s all the anxiety of like, will it still be there when I get back? [00:07:36] Scott: And he be like, when I get back, is it happy? And all of a sudden it turns around and doesn’t even realise you’ve gone. You think? Oh, great. [00:07:41] David: Yes, it is all turns into a monster or something. Okay, let’s turn to the model. I’ll put the schematic of the model on the the page for the podcast. The model’s really interesting. So can you just lead us through the main elements of the model and kind of where they’ve come from? [00:07:57] Scott: Okay. Yeah. So there’s three key stages within it. So, in the [00:08:00] center is purpose, so that really is what’s important to you, and what is the contribution you wished. [00:08:06] David: Okay. [00:08:06] Scott: So it was really ensembles the conduct. Cause I think not Daniel Pink when he wrote his book “drive” and he talks about the big P the Purpose, but then later on, he talks about the little P which is not about the changing the world, it’s about what’s the contribution I wish to make. He has a purpose for associates and it doesn’t have to be earth shattering, but the way I try to work, is working from the perspective of the people you are. [00:08:26] David: Okay. [00:08:26] Scott: So things are, say, imagine your stakeholders have to vote you into your position. [00:08:31] David: Right? [00:08:31] Scott: Why would they vote for you? So again, even at the beginning, we’re tying to flip the dynamics of understanding of, it’s not being the leader doing stuff, it’s I have to serve these people for them to vote me into my position of leadership. [00:08:42] David: Yeah. [00:08:42] Scott: So what it is I stand for? What do I do? What would be my manifesto to encourage these people, to ask you. Then the next part of that, we look at giving people some tools to help them do some sort of emotional response rather than reaction to say, okay, this is what I want to be known for. This is what’s important to me. This is what I want to be recognised for. Okay. Now that’s some tools I can [00:09:00] respond emotionally, this aligned to that. So, the basis of that purpose of that underpins it. Then you move on to this second circle, which is true, and looking again, all the research we’ve done about trust is, trust is quite interesting, I think is because you can trust somebody with your house keys, but you might not trust them with a project. It is not black or white. It’s not, you do or don’t trust people. You trust people in different elements at different levels. So trust is getting understand those five dimensions of creating the model, which the things that, so first is your credibility or believability. Do you say what you mean? Do you mean what you say? Are you fact-based or do you just come off on opinions that aren’t structured by anything and then credibility, can you do what you say? And are you open and honest with your capabilities, also for this, as it goes back to what you were saying about going into a team, the capability to deliver does not necessarily have to lie with you. It’s how can you open up your network to give you a capability or strategic partnerships that give you capabilities. So, look at what you want to achieve and what is necessary to have in place to achieve that. What do you have? What don’t you have, and who around you has it that you can tap into. So, it’s not just about personal care, it’s [00:10:00] about network capability as well, which goes to say, helping people understand about empowering people around me to help us achieve. Then you go to reliability. So, do you live on your promises, but also are you consistent? So people say, I can rely on what this person is, how this person is going to respond, will react to the level of consistency in that reliable. And again, we go back to values and outcomes for that to give that sense of that, to give that reliability could just something to plant or consistency on. Then emotional connectiveness, which is, can you emotionally connect with people? Can we move from transactional communication to transformational? So, good tip is to say, look at the communication you have with somebody, your emails, how business orientated. Is there anything personal in there at all? If there isn’t, you are in a transactional relationship with somebody and therefore, you have to negotiate that transaction every time, a trust that level has to be renegotiated every instance. So, how can we move it to a more emotionally connected and things like … gossip… [00:10:51] David: yup. [00:10:52] Scott: .. because if you gossip, what you’re saying, somebody, you’re going to tell me something that’s quite important to you and I’m going to share it with the… Well, I’m not going to then start sharing stuff with you because you can’t be trusted [00:11:00] with personal information. You can’t build an emotional connection is if you share personal information. [00:11:05] David: Yeah. And there’s kind of a respect in there, isn’t there? About, sort of like, kind of developing a mutual respect.. [00:11:10] Scott: .. and being willing to share something of yourself. So, we did that in negotiations, it’s an amazing relationship builder, be willing to share something of yourself to get something back as well. So, what are you comfortable sharing about yourself, to who, you know, and you can observe that change, and then that starts to give you an indication of how deep that connection actually is and how deep that relationship is. So, there’s a lot of indicators around how we communicate, what we communicate, about what we can actually gauge, mutually we can engage where we are with other people, but also where they are with us. [00:11:37] David: Yeah. [00:11:37] Scott: And the last one is selflessness as well. If people think you’re self-centered, they don’t, he’s only doing it because he wants something, and there’s no trust in that. No matter what you’re saying and what you’re doing, how you’re not believable when people think your motives are ulterior motives or self-centered. So, at them just trust. So, another thing we’re careful when you communicate is how many times do you say the word? “I” [00:11:56] David: Yep. [00:11:57] Scott: As you’re demonstrating your self – centered communication. We even [00:12:00] these little micro behaviors that we have influence perception, and that’s what trust is. Trust is perception. [00:12:05] David: Yes, definitely. It’s perceptual process, and certainly that idea about where your focus is, whether it’s on what I’m getting in me or whether it’s on this thing and making things better, it’s kind of the win-win. Yeah! Nice! [00:12:19] Scott: So you think about it, it incorporates your language, your behaviors, your emotions, and your motives. And they all interplay around each other, so you can see how some influence, but what we do is we explore those and then you explore the relationships with the people, you need to have good relationships with, to see where do they sit. So at what level do I trust people within these different domains or dimensions? [00:12:37] David: Yeah, we did it different context. [00:12:40] Scott: And then, where do I think they see me? [00:12:42] David: Yep. [00:12:42] Scott: And what am I doing, that’s supporting that view and what am I doing if I want to change that view and get them to see me as that more total trust where things might need to be doing differently around these dimensions to incorporate that [00:12:52] David: I can actually, well, see this would be very useful as a kind of, a feedback exercise from people around you in each of these areas. [00:12:59] Scott: [00:13:00] Well, that’s eventually where we’re going with this, hopefully is to build that area within the platform we’re going to put it on, so organisations can do it and they get a trusted. [00:13:08] David: Yeah, that wouldn’t make a lot of sense. [00:13:09] Scott: So you can actually, you could see a heat map of where the high levels of trust is, but also is there any dimension within your organisation that is desperately low? So you can then start looking at how we can work within our business and you can see areas are higher and lower and based on the activities within the model, then that can help you build that level of trust. Would it be specific to deficiencies and whether? [00:13:28] David: Got you. Okay, brilliant. And where did these five areas or six with purpose? So we’ve got purpose in the middle then believable, capable, reliable, emotionally connected and selfless around them. Where have they come from? How did you drive these? [00:13:42] Scott: So partly it’s a lot of it was around trust, and so trying to help people become influential, cause that’s where I started looking to try and help offer this sort of. So I did a lot around trust and stuff, but really trust is the basis, but you need to have something to base it off. And that’s where purpose came from. I said, yeah, you can be trusted but trusted for what? So I thought there needed to be an anchor. [00:13:59] David: Yep. [00:13:59] Scott: [00:14:00] And that’s where purpose came from. So looking at what people say and also have motivational purposes. So that’s why it sort of, because when I first played with it, I think I trusted the middle, then thinking about it process, I said, no, it really needs some of it needs an anchor. So it’s really sort of the iteration of the model over a period. [00:14:16] David: Yeah. And so the whole model is about developing trust and there’s lots of evidence to support those certainly around purpose focused leadership and the effect that that has, and certainly from leadership styles that I suppose promote, but look at the primacy of purpose and why that is important both as an individual, but also as a team and an organisation. What is it that we’re really trying to do? And whether our behaviors and actions behind that actually support the articulated purpose? [00:14:46] Scott: Absolutely not. So that’s why that’s the first bit. So when we do the manifesto, if the program is designed to be that’s the thing we deliver. So what needs to happen to deliver that? So what the value is, what the behaviors were that cause that’s what you build trust around. So you can be [00:15:00] trusted, but it’s, again, it needs something to say, it needs something to hang off or to anchor that I have something that I can say, right, that’s it, no need to build trust. So it’s really been another outcome focused as well, which I think is important that. I didn’t want to just be like a model that sits and people say, oh, it looks lovely. What do I actually do with it? I wanted it to have something that you say, just follow this. And it’s kind of like a roadmap as well. [00:15:21] David: Yep. [00:15:21] Scott: I said before we came online, is it a model? Is it a framework? Is it an operating brands? Is it, well, I don’t know what it is, but it’s just about how can you build influential relationships that deliver what you want? [00:15:30] David: Yeah [00:15:31] Scott: Really. So, we started as well. I think we’re purpose originated. [00:15:33] David: Yeah, that makes sense. And, around the outside, you’ve got three arrows, I suppose, of integrate, individualize and innovate all heading towards a clockwise direction. [00:15:45] Scott: Yes. [00:15:45] David: What are those about? [00:15:46] Scott: So you’ve got trust. What do you do with it? So it’s now about leveraging that trust effectively, but the trust and that work together. So this is about, so the integrate is for you to be successful, who were the stakeholders you need on board? [00:15:58] David: Yep. [00:15:58] Scott: So you need to integrate [00:16:00] yourself into a network of something, whether it’s the employees you’re working with, whether it’s a strategic alliance you want to work with, maybe it’s potential clients or stakeholders or suppliers, who is it, who’s key for you to actually deliver what you wanted. So again, I just didn’t want it to be a model, I want it to be something that’s applicable and practical, that people can actually follow, and I go through a process of actually making it useful to them, and there’s a tangible outcome. [00:16:23] David: So, in terms of integration or integrate, it seems to me to be two elements of this one is well three what is my network that will help them occur, how do I both integrate the network and integrate into the network? And then also, how do I integrate the elements; believable, capable, reliable, trust, and purpose into that with all that, right? [00:16:46] Scott: Yeah. Cause the part of the integrators actually to a session at work. Yeah. So where is it, where’s the strength of my network? Who do I really need to have really strong connections? And then you can assess and then you can actually say, okay, this person, I need to have a stronger relationship with this person. Then you can start, okay. Where is the [00:17:00] trust with this person? How can I build trust using these things and starting, and then to really focus on what you want to achieve with the people who are going to help you achieve it. [00:17:08] David: Yeah. [00:17:08] Scott: Trust in equal ways, a mutual beneficial. Not, this is a person, I need them on board. I’m going to manipulate the situation because to me, manipulation and influence two sides of the same coin. [00:17:17] David: And so I was going to ask you about that actually. So, in what way, explain? [00:17:22] Scott: Manipulation and influencing are really similar, because it’s about helping somebody or asking somebody to do something you want them to do. And the techniques used can be quite similar, but to me, it’s the ethos behind it that makes it. [00:17:33] David: Okay. [00:17:34] Scott: So I’m going to manipulate you to do something that could potentially be negative to you, but it’s just purely because it’s going to help me, whereas I can influence you to do something that’s going to be beneficial to you and potentially beneficial to me as well. [00:17:43] David: Okay. So that’s based on win-win. [00:17:46] Scott: Yeah, definitely. Based on win – win, things like we’re trying to influence people to have a better lifestyle, now that’s going to benefit them more than, you still try to influence people to do that because that’s going to have, it’s going to have a beneficial outcome to them. [00:17:57] David: Yes. Yeah. And that makes a lot of difference. [00:18:00] And, I do think in organisations, there’s a lack of thought about, well, there’s kind of a, I suppose Alexa, there’s a whole language around leading and motivating people, and when you start to look at it, really look at it, you start to wonder which side this is on, whether it’s motivational manipulation and whether we’re really influencing people or either manipulating them psychologically in a way, or we’re actually twisting their arm up the back with, you know, you won’t have a job anymore, “if you don’t” type of manipulation, which is much more direct form of manipulation and it’s that directness that gets a lot of leaders into trouble where they get fed up and they just go for a power show, which is the direct power, or they start manipulating in some way, rather than actually trying to build an influence based trusting relationship, and I think that happens a lot, particularly when leaders are under stress. [00:18:56] Scott: I think so because some of this takes effort, it does take effort and [00:19:00] just don’t sit in a flexing your power muscles takes no effort at all. It’s quick, it’s realising saying to somebody, or you come out of control, your coaching, coaching takes effort, it takes time cause it’s an investment, sometimes those rewards aren’t direct, they take long time for it to become fruition, but the long-term influences. Everyone knows long-term impact of a positive relationship with somebody is huge compared to having the short-term gains over a negative relationship with somebody. [00:19:21] David: Yeah, definitely. And certainly because we’re from reasonably similar backgrounds. So because I’m from a police background certainly the leaders that people trusted when something happened and we just had to go and do something, the action was even though they were at that point, they’d moved into a command and control, just because of time and because somebody’s life was at risk, they were much more likely to be followed, and worked with the people who right at the start, were using power as part of that relationship, you know, I’m the boss, you just do what I say, type of a relationship. Once the stress starts happening, that’s when we found that things started to go wrong for [00:20:00] those people because people really, as they were moving into a situation, they were starting to get worried because they didn’t believe that individual would have their best interests at heart and in a dangerous situation, that’s not a good place to be. [00:20:14] Scott: No. And I think especially if you, and this is where, if you have a blame culture within your organisation, that becomes even more apparent because you think, oh, these people that they’re just doing it to protect themselves and that I’m going to end up carrying the can for this. So again, that’s that motives and that’s where blame doesn’t come into helping build this type of relationships because you exist in the culture, so you’ve got to work a little bit harder for that, and you have to recognize the environment in which you’re working and you have to adapt to it, because you can’t change it overnight, but you can, you can still be, say in the prison service, you can say it was quite a blame culture. Was there a blame culture? I thought it was very much about what’s the record, what did you say, what did you do? And you can be held accountable, and quite often I’ve had conversations, and one of the managers said, that’s not what I said, Mr. Hunter, I said, that’s what I thought you said, that’s not what I said. So I then got into trouble or did something that I thought was okay, and I was told by a senior manager, it wasn’t. [00:21:00] So next time the senior manager asked me to do something, so do you mind writing that down? Much trusted the Minish massively with this individual because of that action. [00:21:05] David: Yeah. [00:21:06] Scott: So he said, well, why are you being like that? I said, well, obviously if you’re going to write down, I don’t want to misunderstand, like I did last time, which is awful. [00:21:12] David: Yeah. [00:21:12] Scott: So if you just write it down, then it’s clear, I know exactly what I’m doing. So I sold it that way, and you couldn’t say no, but really it was about me ensuring that he wouldn’t come off the hook again. [00:21:22] David: Yeah [00:21:22] Scott: .. ..me carrying the can. There’s an example of one action about motives and protecting. However much, if you really, really like that person, then they didn’t the negative that may have been much less, you might’ve been more willing to rebuild that level of trust, but that the level of trust with that person is massively diminished. And I look at trust, so imagine there’s a whatever, 7 billion people in the… [00:21:42] David: Yep. [00:21:43] Scott: ..You have a trust balance with every single one of them as a person, if you’ve never met them as neutral, cause they don’t know you, so it’s like basically, but if they’ve been introduced to you, seeing some of your products, your marketing, your sales, been referenced by anyone, any information about you starting to either pay into that trust balance or [00:22:00] withdrawing from the trust balance. So that’s why I think it’s important that we think about our marketing and all our interactions, because they do influence what we say, what we tweet, what we do. And let’s come back to home people many times about what you’ve said in the past. I’m a changed person. Why did you say that 20 years..? When was ever okay to tweet that and really thinking about how was this going to impact on people’s perception of me. And so I’m really asking people to think that way about what they’re doing. One of the questions somebody said to him, I said, one of the questions I asked and I’ve kept a long time for me. Would you be willing to say that in open court? [00:22:30] David: Yeah. [00:22:31] Scott: In front of the judge, in front of the person who said it about a barrister and all that sort of stuff, and be questioned about it. If not, don’t say it. It’s just to me, it’s a simple, simple sort of gauge I use. Would I be willing to say that in open court, if I’m not willing to say in open court, that means I’m not willing to justify my opinion or embarrassed about what I’ve said or… [00:22:48] David: Yeah. [00:22:48] Scott: Yeah. [00:22:49] David: Yeah. I like that idea of the trust balance, and I think that it’s kind of a powerful idea to start thinking about where am I in whatever the relationship is and [00:23:00] going through those relationships within say a startup or a business, and just thinking about where both sides of that coin are in terms of a trust balance. Is it in deficit or is it on the positive and could it be more positive? I think that’s quite a powerful way of thinking about it [00:23:18] Scott: And then ask yourself, what am I going to do today to pay into my balance with people? [00:23:21] David: Yeah. [00:23:22] Scott: And, I think we would also look at the word trustworthy. So what are you doing is making yourself worthy of somebody’s trust? Which is another way out there. I love that quote, that word in sort of breaking down what it means. I think Charles felt when I had a quote, I would try and remember this off the top of my head and it’s one of the best definitions of trust I seen is trust is making something you value vulnerable to the actions of somebody else. [00:23:43] David: Yeah. [00:23:43] Scott: And if you think about business, what are you asking your staff that they value to leave with you or leave open to actions of yours? What are your clients, what are you asking them to trust you with? What is it value you’re asking them to trust you with and how are you going to demonstrate that that’s okay for them to leave that with you? [00:23:58] David: Yep. [00:23:58] Scott: So I really think thinking [00:24:00] in that way, then you start to think about, it changes our perception in to much more about what am I doing to show that I can be true, and therefore people will, are willing to trust me and then that escalates and it accelerates larger things. And the two important aspects of trust, I think is we spend too long in businesses talking about our credibility and reliability. We don’t think enough about our motives on emotional connection. [00:24:20] David: Yeah. And I think that’s true both within organisations with employees, for example, but also with clients and customers and stakeholders. [00:24:27] Scott: Yeah. If you’d look at people’s websites, look at your own website, how much then I’m saying yours, this is people who are listening. Then look at your website, how much of your website is about how good you are? And then that’s demonstrating credibility, reliability, but from a selfish Mooney thing, because all about me, it’s all about me, it’s all about me. Oh. Why somebody gonna engage in that? Because you’re just talking about… so it doesn’t build trust to start with, it builds certain aspects, but it damages on another one. [00:24:48] David: Yeah. Yeah. And actually, yeah, that’s a good litmus test actually. [00:24:51] Scott: So you’d go against all five dimensions of trust. How much is there emotional connection communication, how much reliability, credibility is there? How much emotional connection is there? How much you [00:25:00] demonstrating selflessness? Is that a selfishness? I think if you can test against all five of those, pretty much everything you do, you’re not going to go far wrong. [00:25:07] David: Yeah. Yes. Now, I think that’s really important. Can we just move on to the next arrow that you’ve got? Cause I’m intrigued by this “individualize.” What do you mean by that? Because that’s an unusual thing to see in a model. I don’t see that, I look at lots of models on a daily basis, but it’s an unusual thing. [00:25:24] Scott: I don’t know if it is, if you think about influential not influenced because my one, they oh, what is it, I’ve forgotten the guy’s name now. So you can blend shot, situation leadership.. [00:25:31] David: Situation leadership, yeah.. [00:25:33] Scott: That’s an individualized model. It’s adapting my behavior to the situation somebody else’s in. [00:25:37] David: Oh Okay. So that’s what you mean. [00:25:38] Scott: So individualization for me is to really get to understand these stakeholders. You’ve identified them, where are they? What’s important to them, what are they trying to achieve? And there are ways of doing this, that aren’t too onerous on people it’s about. So listen to what your stakeholders talking about or emotive or motivational language or words that they use. If you’re writing to something, how might this person perceive what you’re saying? Cause then [00:26:00] you can start understanding the language they use, which means I can communicate to them in their language now because I’ve started to assimilate that to a degree. You can also look at what’s the sentimental relationship I have with these people. Where’s the sentiment, molds music going up or is it going down, is it become a friendlier or from. So you can actually start gauging the way your relationships are with these people as well, and then you start thinking what’s important to this person because if I want to influence them and I want to be selfless, the only way to do that is to try and put it together in a way that’s going to benefit them, achieving what they want or avoiding what they don’t want. So that’s really the individualizes. So yeah, I’ve got stakeholders. Who are they? I mean, really who? [00:26:34] David: And where are they? As in inside, what they want? [00:26:38] Scott: What do they want? What do they fear? What’s the language or what’s their experience in their context. And then how does that influence how you would then approach them, to really start thinking about what language are they using? Are they using languages? Are they very direct in their language? So you could be a little bit more direct back. What is it they mentioned a lot, when you say what’s… because what we tend to mention first or repeatedly as something that’s really important to us. So how can you link what you’re doing [00:27:00] to those indicators these people are giving you in this conversation. What’s the emotional hooks this person’s throwing out. How can I latch on to them? If I were negotiating backgrounds? [00:27:08] David: Got you. Okay. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Okay. And onto the last one, innovate. [00:27:13] Scott: So now you know them and now you know who you need to know and you know what you need these people on board for. How can you create something that delivers that? [00:27:20] David: Okay, [00:27:20] Scott: It’s a personalized solution, It’s again, when you talk about you, you’re asking people to look at these things. So it’s about getting people on board, being willing to challenge the status quo, being curious about things or doing, looking for potential connections. And saying, okay, this person, I need this personal board to do that, how can say you’ll be much more fluid with what you’re looking for doing. There’s a woman called Joey Lee, who wrote a book I’ve forgotten the name of book and is a great way of looking at an organisation, especially small businesses. It’s not, if the glass is half full or half empty, it’s what’s your water who needs it and how’d you get it? [00:27:49] David: Yes. [00:27:50] Scott: So what are your strengths? What have you got capability? What’s my stakeholders needs and wants, what do I want them to, what do I need them to do to help me? What have I got within my water that I can then [00:28:00] get to that person? How do I get it in a way that works? What happens? [00:28:03] David: Okay. So, how does the whole model process work together? And can you just talk as I suppose how’s it used? [00:28:12] Scott: Okay, so it’s new, as is. So it’s still, it’s fine lights where it is now. This is like the, I’m never going to say final because you never can. But as far as I’m aware, this is at the moment, it’s okay, where it is, it’s okay. It’s been adapted and done, how I’m starting to use it, is partly I’ve built a competency framework under of some of the behaviors, there’s 37 indicators. And again, that’s open for review and adapting as you know, when you do something that you think that works and then as you test it, test it and test it, something else may come about this, a better understanding of it. So you do the assessment, you find out where you are and then it’s basically, it’s going through those processes of where am I, who am I, what’s important than going through where my relationships are with the people, and then the view for me is always going back, so, although it’s written that way. So once you’ve done sort of trust and you understand trust and what it is, and you start to develop [00:29:00] trusting relationships and then you move on to integrate is then going back to what’s those trust and relationships, and how can I use that knowledge now with these new relationships, as I’ve gone on to a new project, who do I need to re-integrate with? So it really is a sort of a process we go through those adaptable to help us deliver the goals we’re trying to deliver as leaders, whether that’s project leaders, whether it’s small businesses, wherever it is. So I’m not sure if it’s a model movement, it might be an operating system that I want to it’s basic. [00:29:24] David: It could be all of them. [00:29:25] Scott: So that’s how people use it really is to say, okay. And it’s more about having that north star, which is your purpose and saying, okay, what am I doing consistently to deliver against that? And then who do I need on board to help me get? How can I get them on board in the way that’s beneficial to them as well as me? Really is the three elements that you’re talking about and it’s about that consistency and building that reputation. [00:29:45] David: Great. And so when you’re introducing it either through coaching or training, how do you go about doing that? [00:29:51] Scott: I haven’t introduced it to many people. It’s that new. It will be on a platform, we’re building a platform now that will be sitting and there’ll be an assessments on it and then [00:30:00] activities, and cause I love playing with activities rather than just telling people what to do. [00:30:04] David: Hmm, cool. [00:30:04] Scott: So do this activity and this is linked to that behavior, which is linked to that aspect. So people can then take certain activities and develop around those things as they see fit, but how I’m introducing it is basically helping leaders build trust based relationships that they can influence people so they can build better relationships, improve reputation, increase revenue. Now let’s study sinus salesy, pitchy thing around it, but that’s all it’s really about, is to help people do things through positive relationships. [00:30:29] David: Yeah. And it just strikes me, which is one of the reasons for the interview and the podcast really, is that it’s a good set of constructs for anybody, but leaders within organisations to start thinking about those elements that add to increased trust and better relationships, really you know, just around the five areas that you’ve got, well, six areas, suppose purpose, but believable, capable, reliable, connected, or [00:31:00] emotionally connected and selfless, kind of good principles anyway for good leadership. [00:31:04] Scott: Yeah, I think. Well, yes, they are, because I think it’s cause there’s also some servant leadership in there cause there’s selflessness as well as there’s aspects of servant leadership and there’s aspects of so purpose driven leadership, if you’ve talking about. So, it’s about, and you’ve talked about purpose about it and the “why” is important. So people like Simon Sinek talk about it, Daniel Pink talks about it, and even Robert Cialdini in the psychology of influence talk about the power of the word because, just simple, don’t tell people to do something, tell people I’d like to do this because, but is that because justified, is that because self less, can, does, the because make sense to somebody, are you just asking somebody to do something because you just hate doing it? [00:31:39] David: Yep. [00:31:40] Scott: Or you’re asking somebody to do, I’ve picked you because.. this is part of this, this . And what do you need to do to achieve this? How can I support you? This is what good looks like, this is what we expect, and then where are you with that? What help do you think you can do it? Or is it something that you’re not comfortable with and if you want to do what helped. And so again, it’s about helping people, really look at how they communicate people [00:32:00] to people in a way that’s going to build that, because I think communication is key around that, because we communicate all the time, your body language, the words you choose to use everything else, all sort of come out of this. So, and really being, and we talked about authenticity and being authentic, but really you only notice when somebody is authentic, when it’s lacking, you can’t teach the city, you can teach in authenticity. [00:32:21] David: Let me ask you another question on the back of that then. So if you’ve got some leaders who want to become more authentic, how do they develop that? [00:32:30] Scott: I think for these, just strip down what they’re doing now, and now we’re back down to what is really important to me. And then how do I deliver on that? As everything I’m doing lot, because then it’s important to you. And it’s one of the best bits of advice I ever got given in the prison service, which you can watch other people and you can learn from other people, only do the stuff they do that sits comfortably on your shoulders. So it’s really been aware of, would I be comfortable doing that? Is that aligned with who I am or what I am as a personality, as a person, then I can learn, but I can also learn from what other people do and it’s [00:33:00] effective for them, but their personality in the way are, is different, so I can’t do that because it won’t work as effectively. [00:33:05] David: Yeah. [00:33:06] Scott: So I think that’s one of the easiest things that would, how comfortable am I doing that. [00:33:09] David: And I think that’s important because it’s got to kind of align with my values as a leader because otherwise I’m going to find it terribly difficult to enact it, if it doesn’t, because I’ve got to keep moving through all of these processes in order to get it done. Whereas if it’s aligned, it becomes an easier process, much more fluid. And I’m just thinking back to that integrate part that you’ve got, there is kind of an internal integration as well with an individual’s beliefs and values. [00:33:37] Scott: And I think that’s why I found it important that trust is good, but trust based on what, so that’s why I think the purpose got put in there because I said there has to be something that anchor this all from is your north star. So one of the activities in your decision making process is actually called it the north. [00:33:51] David: Yeah. And [00:33:52] Scott: .. that is your decision, that’s what you want to do on each one of the four steps of this, the north star. What are the key values you’ve identified they’re important to you? How does that [00:34:00] decision map against each one of those? If it doesn’t, why are you doing it? [00:34:03] David: Yeah. Yeah, I think this is a very good point. Interesting. Yeah, really interesting model. And as I say, I’ll put the schematic on the show notes so that people didn’t have a look at it. Just if people want to find you, how do they go about doing that, Scott? [00:34:15] Scott: They can find me on LinkedIn and quite easily. And the website is www.theinnovatecrowd.com
* A note about consultant practitioner models
Like most consultant practitioner models, the Leadership Influence Model has not been formally validated at this point. However, such models are in common use by consultants and practitioners and are useful in that they are based on the experience and tacit knowledge (know how) of the consultant and represent their perspective and sense-making. Our perspective on consultant practitioner models is that they are interesting as they show the meaning – making of the practitioner and if it helps clients to understand a concept, and do something then that’s fine, as long as the model is open to challenge and revision like other models in the scientific community. There is also the issue that validated models are only ever validated for a particular context. There are no universally correct and validated models.
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