Transforming Sales Management: How to Get Sales People Through Change

Transforming Sales Management: How to Get Sales People Through Change

In today’s fast-paced business landscape, effective sales management has become crucial for companies looking to gain a competitive edge. With evolving consumer preferences and increasing market complexities, it is essential for businesses to adopt innovative strategies and techniques to drive sales growth. However, as the world changes so do organisations and sales processes. Helping sales people navigate change has become a critical sales management issue. In this interview I talk with Dr. Grant Van Ulbrich, author of the new book (see below) Transforming Sales Management: Lead Sales Teams Through Change

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Dr. Grant Van Ulbrich

Dr. Grant is the Global Director, Sales Transformation with Royal Caribbean. He holds an MSc in Professional Practice in Leading Sales Transformation from Consalia Sales Business School and Middlesex University and a Doctorate of Professional Studies with a focus on Sales Transformation from Middlesex University.

The book – Transforming Sales Management: Lead Sales Teams Through Change

You can get Transforming Sales Management – Lead Sales Teams Through Change here:

The Scared – So What model

To see the personal change model this book incorporates see:



Transforming Sales Management: Lead Sales Teams Through Change with Dr. Grant Van Ulbrich

[00:00:00] Grant: Hi, this is the Organizational 

[00:00:04] David: Success Academy from the Oxford Review, 

[00:00:06] Grant: bringing you the very latest research in leadership, management, organizational development, design, transformation, 

[00:00:12] David: and change. Human resources and human capital, organizational learning, coaching, and work psychology from 

[00:00:19] Grant: around the world.

[00:00:20] Grant: To make you the most up-to-date and knowledgeable person 

[00:00:22] David: in the room, welcome back. Um, today, again, actually a returner. We have now Dr. Grant Van Ulrich, who has recently written and is about to publish a new book called Transforming Sales Management Lead Sales Teams Through Change by Kogan page. Now Grant’s been a guest on the podcast before and he was explaining his personal change model Scared.

[00:00:52] David: So what? And this time we’re having a look at the book. Anyway, welcome back, grant. 

[00:00:59] Grant: Oh, thank you [00:01:00] Dr. David. It’s wonderful to be with you again. Uh, always nice to visit with you. I’ve been, I’m such a proud supporter of the Oxford Review and all at ud. Do thank you 

[00:01:07] so 

[00:01:07] David: much. Great. Thank you. Yeah, it’s a real pleasure to have you back.

[00:01:10] David: And as you’ll see, I’m a big fan of this model for a number of reasons, which we’ll cover in, in a few minutes. So firstly, congratulations on the book that’s about to be published as of the recording, which is when’s it due to be published? 

[00:01:24] Grant: May. Lunch is May 3rd here in the uk in May 30th in North America.

[00:01:29] David: Okay. Oh great. So can you just talk us through what’s kind of led up to 

[00:01:33] Grant: writing this book? Well, as you know, as we discussed the last time in buildings, scared, so what it was, uh, a conduit from my master’s program, which was the first master’s in Sales transformation and how do you lead it? And at the Crust for that, the center focus was change.

[00:01:50] Grant: It can change management and how you lead people to doing that. So as soon as I created the model and as soon as I was able to get it out and test it, I knew that it had a wider [00:02:00] use, a wider case study, and a case use for more people, especially as we started giving it to our customers around the world.

[00:02:06] Grant: I thought this is really impactful and can change people, and can change people’s ways of thinking. So, As I started the doctoral program, one of the things that Dr. Katie McGuire from Middlesex introduced me to, she said, part of your doctorate is going to have, you’re going to publish, you’re going to one to publish your story, and the scared.

[00:02:24] Grant: So what definitely needs to be published. And even you hack that and hinted into that as well too. In our conversations that we’ve had together brand, you’ve got several things that need to be published and scared. So what definitely is one of them. So I just knew it had to be coming into a book. I didn’t realize how difficult that journey of writing the book is.

[00:02:41] Grant: But also how rewarding it can be. And my professor Farang Middlesex in the consolidated sales business schools, Dr. Phillips Squire, he was connected with Kogan Page and he published his book Selling Transformed. And so it was easy for me to get connected, but with, the funny thing is, is he told me, he said, now once you submit, [00:03:00] just forget about it.

[00:03:01] Grant: It can take a year. Publications, sometimes they don’t respond back and they don’t respond back quickly if they do. So I said, okay, that’s fine. So I submitted on a Sunday. It was the first Sunday in January, and that Monday morning I had a response from the managing editors in New York and they said, you have something, we wanna publish this.

[00:03:19] Grant: And thought, okay. So I was on the phone that day with them and they took it. They took the manuscript and said, I’m let’s to 

[00:03:25] David: go. That’s amazing. Yeah. That is brilliant. Yeah. Well, I think it’s testament to the importance of the model itself. Can we just start with a bit of a wider question first about the target audience for the books, with the, for the book, which appears to be kind of sales managers.

[00:03:43] David: Yeah. What kinds of issues are sales manager’s facing? 

[00:03:46] Grant: So I am a leader of sales transformation for a global cruise line. Uh, that’s my day job full-time, and I have salespeople all across the world and I manage the international REITs. So everything outside of the United States [00:04:00] and the target audience that I wrote book the book for was my team, my sales team, and my sales managers that are leading that and to help them in their everyday issues.

[00:04:10] Grant: We were in the pandemic as everybody else was, and the cruise industry was exceptional in our. So in keeping our sales teams afloat, it was just riddled with change, personal change, very personal change. So the atmosphere to test the models of validity was perfect. You know, it’s a shame to say anything positive would come out of Covid in the global pandemic, but this was a perfect scenario for me to test a global personal change model and see if it had true efficacy to support people and it didn’t.

[00:04:40] Grant: So it was how do we help them in dealing with everyday changes that are happening to them in their personal lives. But also, as you know, when we come to work, our personal lives don’t just shut down and all of the baggage that we carry with with you, it is still in our briefcase or our backpack along with us.

[00:04:57] Grant: So how do you unpack that and how do you deal with the day-to-day [00:05:00] challenges that happen within sales? And a lot of people say, well, new sales people really deal with change. Yeah, a lot. So if you can imagine the change pressure happens on both spectrums, it comes from the entities we work for and the pressures from our relative management teams to drive one way, which is usually suppliers, Erick, but then also our customers.

[00:05:20] Grant: In my case, in our teams, it’s our B2B customers. Their needs, their wants and their experiences through the global pandemic and surviving. So you have two different spectrums that are pushing and bullying and the salesperson is at the center. So yeah, that are rided with change that happens each and every single day.

[00:05:37] David: And is the perception of salespeople that they’re actually in the middle of all of this change and that things are constantly shifting. 

[00:05:45] Grant: Yeah, absolutely. And you think about the salesperson is trying to do, um, ride by the company and by the organization. We have our key performance indicators, our goals, our targets, and we have to reach in every single day.

[00:05:58] Grant: And then it’s up to us as sales to [00:06:00] go ahead and close those deals and try to make sure that in our case for b2b, that our travel agents have everything they need to sell us. Well, you have to remember that the travel agents can sell multiple cruise lines and multiple entities in mul multiple forms of travel.

[00:06:15] Grant: So how do you deal with that and how do you support, you know, deal rejections, missed opportunities, missed calls, missed appointments, rejection that happens each and every single day from the customer to the salesperson. Yeah. So you’re stuck right in the middle. Absolutely. And it is change and it is personal.

[00:06:34] Grant: It sticks with 

[00:06:35] David: you. Yeah, I’ve got not being a salesperson, I hadn’t really thought of it like that. And I suppose when you consider it right, there’s market change and that’s kind of going on and this social change, but also organizations are changing. Yeah. And their products are changing. What their mission is, the, the kind of direction of the organization and things are all changing as well that that salespeople have to kind of cope with.[00:07:00] 

[00:07:00] Grant: Absolutely. And people don’t, we don’t really talk about that. So, you know, the, at the crust of what, of my conversations with people, we’ve never been taught how to manage personal change. And once you say that, people kind of go, what do you mean change? Change happens each and every single day all over the world.

[00:07:16] Grant: But what is personal change? And that kind of stumps people. And I define personal change as any change that happens to you, for you, with you, or about you. That’s personal change. So how do you manage that? If you reflect back in your young years, or even today with your professors, or you have, you have students at university or people in business with their supervisors.

[00:07:39] Grant: If you have a change situation and you go to somebody who you’re seeking guidance from. The typical responses that you get are, oh, don’t worry about that. You know Dr. David, it’s gonna be following. You’re gonna be perfect. You’re gring for that job. You’re great for that role. You can do that. All types of platitudes that come out, and you have to ask yourself, does that really make you feel [00:08:00] any better?

[00:08:00] Grant: Maybe for about a minute or two, but then inside your body takes back over. Your mind is telling you something’s wrong. Your body might be doing the same rapid breath, maybe it’s goosebumps, maybe it’s sweats, cold sweats, et cetera. It’s strous and your body’s saying, Hey, something’s not right and I don’t like it.

[00:08:18] Grant: What are you going to do about it? Well, we haven’t been taught how to manage it, and that’s where our scared. So what comes into play? I’m saying from the global organizational change models that something is missing. There’s a gap. And as you very well know, and I quote you in my articles, in my writeups many times, there is a myth out there that 70% organizational change management fails.

[00:08:41] Grant: That’s not true. And I love your research as well too. What they said was 32% is successful, the rest is kind of in an a array of, well, we’re just not sure. Um, but that doesn’t mean it fails. But when you do interview those change leaders, of which I have, what they will tell you is the reason why there is a tendency for failure [00:09:00] is because there’s this failure to focus on the individual.

[00:09:03] Grant: And that’s what I have done. I have focused on the individual so that we can bridge together. Yeah, 

[00:09:10] David: and I suppose there’s two things there. One is sales notoriously kind of high pressure, high stress kind of roles anyway, and the fact that other models are different. And in fact, right at the start of the book you talked about eight different kind of change models and you come up with a really nice kind of critique of those.

[00:09:30] David: Do you want to explain what that is? 

[00:09:32] Grant: Sure I did it on the purpose because in my, my doctoral program doing the literature review and the research, I couldn’t find any in one book that had a list of the global change models in place all in one location. I found that they were all written about singularly by themselves and for their own purposes of their uses, and I thought, well, that’s just not very helpful.

[00:09:55] Grant: So I thought anything that I produce, I would like to make [00:10:00] it almost a one stop shop place for people to come and find and learn about change management for salespeople. As it happens. It applies to just about everybody, but that’s why I wanted people from a business book, the sales book, to be able to come and see models that they’re probably going to come across or have come across.

[00:10:19] Grant: Within their working lines or their careers. So what are they? What are the ones that I call my top eight? And there are also leaders that I’ve spoken with and I’ve had great conversations with about why did they make them, how did they make them? What were they intended for and what was at the heart of what they were trying to do?

[00:10:37] Grant: And so I put those in my book because they will be familiar to people in business. And then I focus deeply on the individual, again, trying to bridge the gap. So you have organizational change models that people might come and apply in years, but then the individual is the key importance in all change success.

[00:10:55] Grant: And there is no model for that until you have mine, which is scared so wide. And then I break it [00:11:00] in into how that comes into play. And now you use that and how do you use them, most importantly together. Yeah, 

[00:11:06] David: that’s really important. But can you give us an overview of the model and talk about that issue about personal change?

[00:11:13] Grant: Yeah, absolutely. So if you think, we just talked a little bit about how we hadn’t been thought, how an interpersonal change. So our gut reaction in a change situation is something’s wrong and we’re searching for information. And what we do today in absence of that, of any model is we make assumptions and that’s not good for anybody.

[00:11:31] Grant: Still. What I wanted to do was say, hit change head on, give you an ability to stop and reflect on it. How through critical reflection can you assess the change situation you’re in. So if you can look at scared. Scared is the first part, and that is where you’re assessing your feelings. Am I surprised about the change?

[00:11:50] Grant: Do I champion it? Am I conflicted about it? What actions could I do to bring in more information? Am I now receptive or do I reject this change? Have I explored any other [00:12:00] options? Again, another action point and what decision could I make? Now, the most important thing about Scared is, is that you can reject change, and that’s okay.

[00:12:10] Grant: No other model takes that into inclusion. If I go back to my discussions with my professors, when I was making this model, I said the organizational change models don’t include my ability to reject change somewhere that needs to be included in the conversation because I don’t accept every single change that’s given to me.

[00:12:28] Grant: So scared you can make a positive decision or a negative decision as long as you haven’t made an informed decision and you’ve brought in action and information. That’s my goal. I want you to reflect on the change that you’re, once you’ve made a decision, then be your free to move forward. So what? That’s where all other mus completely fall flat.

[00:12:49] Grant: There is no, so why they say to you what either magically accept or you’re magically somehow going to get to one endpoint of the diagram and that’s it. And that always leaves me saying, well, so what does this [00:13:00] mean? Or So what can I do about it? And that’s where the leather models stop. So what for me is an action point?

[00:13:06] Grant: Is an action plan. What is your strategy? What options or opportunities did you have available? Again, critical reflection. Do you have a way forward? Do you have hope, or do you know how your plan can work? If you don’t, then you need to stop and go back and re-strategize. But if you can move forward, then you say, right, what actions will I take so I can execute this change?

[00:13:27] Grant: And then finally, what will I do and what will I benchmark to ensure that I take ownership of this change, but the outcome that I want? And you document that you, you built that together through a template and process that I built into the new app, which launches next month. So you can actually manage personal change in the palm of your hand.

[00:13:44] Grant: You can take a quiz. A self-assessment quiz scared and instantly see visually of what your responses are. And then you can go ahead and build your A what strategy plan so that you can actually change for yourself. And the key to this is you don’t have to be scared to use it. [00:14:00] Think like positive change.

[00:14:02] Grant: You’re getting married, you’re getting a new job, you’re moving into a new house or a new location. Those are scary things that happen. All exciting, great and passionate, but your body still death at the same thing. You still go through stress. Anxiety. Think with a groom standing up at the altar and he’s about ready to panic and pass out.

[00:14:21] Grant: It’s the happiest day outta of his life. But he is like, oh gosh, I’m making a big decision. Staying for the Bryan as well too. Positive change can be as scary as well too. So I don’t want people to focus on the word scared and think, ah, this is it for me. It is for you. It’s for all types of change. 

[00:14:35] David: Yeah, and all sorts of personal change as well.

[00:14:38] David: And I, I think one of the things that particularly piqued my interest about your model is the whole area of personal development, because that’s very much about change and that the model itself and the process that you use is very useful for well, all forms of personal development, whether you’re a leader, whether you’re a salesperson, [00:15:00] whether you’re an individual, not in an organization, and you just want to be better.

[00:15:05] David: In some way or progress in some way, this model is going to help. You 

[00:15:10] Grant: know, you’re absolutely right. And it was very interesting through the research when we were in the pandemic and I was using, I was doing my test scenarios as part of my research, it was incredible. We actually gave it to our B2B customers in Europe and and Africa through a program and our corporation and I packaged it up in a little unlike and digital program.

[00:15:30] Grant: So people could learn it and then put it to use. So not only did I have our internal sales teams using it, but we actually had our B2B travel agent customers using it. And I would get emails and phone calls from travel agent saying, grant, I’m using this wherever my children. Is that okay? And I thought, well, I didn’t build it that way.

[00:15:49] Grant: Hope it. What’s going on? They say, my children as young as 14 years old are using this and they’re able to get through it faster and they’re now teaching me. And I thought, well, that makes sense [00:16:00] because they have less bias, so to speak, less garbage in, in, um, uh, younger years of not being taught like what not to do.

[00:16:08] Grant: And they’re able to process it faster and said, is it helping them to think clearly? I said, yeah, they’re moving on to their so wet planes. They’re no longer scared. I thought that’s very similar to the outcomes we had with our own sales teams. So again, when we were through the pandemic, we had to let a lot of people go.

[00:16:24] Grant: In year. In Europe, there’s a delay, uh, a leniency period before people are actually let go. Right? And you would expect employees ending that sand market to really checked out, disinterested, et cetera. Ours weren’t the, they withdrew scared. So what? They were no longer scared and they came through and said, we need this, we need that, and we need this from you, and then we’re gonna go ahead and do our day jobs as long as you’re, you’re providing this for us so we know we’ll be okay, then we’ll be okay together.

[00:16:51] Grant: And I thought, what a humongous surprise that was. People were, if they can think it through and process, then they can move on and move forward. So they’re no longer [00:17:00] making assumptions. They’re making the informed decisions, which was the heart of what I’m wanted people to be able to do. 

[00:17:05] David: And also probably, I suspect, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, that they’re taking more responsibility for their own outcomes within the change situation and are less likely, I’m assuming, therefore, to reach for blame.

[00:17:21] Grant: Well, and there’s the development sign that you just said, which is why also the research came. Could you use Scared Sowe as a coaching model? The answer, what is resoundingly Yes. By the participants ever surveyed? Actually, we had nearly a hundred percent say you couldn’t use it as a coaching model because the letters are just, you know, words that can be turned around into open-ended questions, and I could use them on you.

[00:17:44] Grant: And what you’re doing within coaching is you’re facilitating the transfer ownership. Right. All I’m doing is listening and asking the open-ended questions. You’re coming up with the ideas. So to your point, that’s where the development happens. The model itself is formulating as the [00:18:00] coach and the coachee is the user is formulating the responses themselves.

[00:18:05] Grant: Thus they’re taking the ownership. Yeah. They have to create it themselves. And I think once the app comes out, that was what was happening when they were using the Excel version, which I had the Excel scan quiz, and I had the Excel template for building your own. So what people were doing, the ownership and building it themselves.

[00:18:22] Grant: Now they’ll be able to do it in the poll of their hand and they’ll have it instantly at the go. So yeah, it helps that facilitation of development, facilitation of ownership and yeah, there’s nobody else to blame me, myself. What plan is my own right. Yeah. The 

[00:18:37] David: other thing that I’ve noticed with it is it, there’s a sense of progression and direction with it that kind of moves you out of a bad place into a place to go to.

[00:18:47] Grant: And that’s the wonderful thing, the critical reflection, isn’t it? Mm-hmm. You know, we’re teaching people how to critically reflect via a model stages, so to speak. Now these stages, I learned this from Dr. Elizabeth Kubler Ross. [00:19:00] Her son, Ken Ross, whos the president of her foundation, he said, my mom did not build a linear model.

[00:19:07] Grant: While everybody thought of the five change career, they thought it was linear. Actually, she had 13 steps in her original model, and she said, none of it’s linear. You’re human being. You can go about it as you process. What she was trying to do was to facilitate a conversation. I’m doing the same. Jared is not a linear model.

[00:19:25] Grant: Neither is. So what? It is a framework for you to think within and critically reflect on the change that’s happening to you. You will the chairman, the process flow, but again, two exhibit points decision and in taking ownership, that’s the development that you are talking about. 

[00:19:41] David: Yeah. Yeah. And it makes a big difference.

[00:19:43] David: Makes a big difference to the way people are perceiving what’s going on around them and the situation that they’re in. And also it makes a big difference to their perceptions of themselves, as well as agents as opposed to victims. 

[00:19:56] Grant: Well, you wanna take the heart of this is to take a [00:20:00] function out of the thought process.

[00:20:02] Grant: And we are human beings. And since we haven’t been taught how to do any of this or thing for ourselves, we make knee-jerk reactions, probably improper decisions. And we make assumptions for ourselves when at the heart of scared to what is action, bringing in information. And if you can think about it, critically reflect about it, and then make an informed decision, you, you’re pretty much guaranteed you’re making better decisions.

[00:20:25] Grant: When I think about when I heard some of Lee’s travel agents telling about their children, I think about the school bully. I think about the workplace bully. Those types of people who are experiencing constant bouts of change, they just don’t know how to process it. Or the leader who doesn’t know how to lead and direct the same thing, it’s a process to help them critically rethink through, and then they can make better outcomes, better decisions, better outcomes, and scenarios can happen for the people around them.

[00:20:52] Grant: So I’m curious to see where it will go and I hope people will take it. My goal is to get it out and teach as many people as I can to start thinking for [00:21:00] themselves. Have you used it 

[00:21:01] David: in with sales teams outside of the kind of covid environment? Yeah. In terms of development of the sales team and change from that and uh, what kinds of outcomes 

[00:21:11] Grant: have you heard?

[00:21:12] Grant: Interesting. You say that cuz the answer is yes. So out of the research, I took the program and actually put it into our own internal learning management system as a course so that people could take, and it became popular within the sales team’s post pandemic. Even through today, all new hire members actually will take it, and they learn how to manage personal change for themselves using scared sunlight.

[00:21:35] Grant: So they take the odd online course and very quickly I’m going to update that to have the digital app. So everybody has it, but right now they’re using Excel versions of it. And the response is, no one’s ever taught us this. You get that every single time. And these are adults, uh, that we’ve hired with exceptional skillsets from around the world to do the jobs.

[00:21:54] Grant: And we have a really strong onboarding program that I built from this sales masters and my doctorate [00:22:00] into sales, science and psychology. But it just sort of happens that we’ve included personal change in how you manage that. I think again, to the book Transforming Sales Management, it is all about that.

[00:22:10] Grant: How do we include change so that we are being inclusive of the individuals in the journey with us? How do we help them to think better? How do we help them to make better decisions? At the heart of what this is all about. So you’re absolutely right in saying that we have put that through to our employees and they’re enjoying it still today and our industry back up stronger than ever.

[00:22:32] Grant: We’re having record breaking years. Yeah. It’s a constant staple now. 

[00:22:36] David: Yeah. I was gonna ask about the out outcomes of this from an organizational point of view as well. That must be quite significant, I would’ve thought. 

[00:22:44] Grant: Well, if you think for people to be able, especially in sales, to be able to make informed decisions, to be able to not panic about stressful situations, to be able to control the conversations and actually empower themselves to move forward and [00:23:00] act and behave in the way that they need to, they don’t have to stress.

[00:23:03] Grant: So by learning how to do that, it helps you to be able to manage yourself accordingly. And yeah, the outcomes are pretty significant when it helps us to have these record breaking years that we are doing. It’s nice till we have sales, our salespeople and our travel agents that have gone through this together, through this journey.

[00:23:19] Grant: So we literally had to rebuild ourselves from the ground up within the cruise industry. And we have brand new travel agencies as well too. So it’s a win-win for everybody I think. Yeah, no, I’m 

[00:23:30] David: just thinking it’s, I can well imagine it’s going to be quite a significant process for people who are like new into something so new recruits into sales, new recruits into, or things like being a police officer, fire, and those kinds of situations because that transition into a new role or promotion, even becoming a leader, becoming a manager, and those kinds of things are quite stressful for 

[00:23:54] Grant: people.

[00:23:55] Grant: You’re absolutely right, and I go this as well too. I am a veteran. I serve my [00:24:00] country America in the US Navy and transitioning from military to civilian life, it was terrifying. How do you do that? You think of police, fire, medical, doctors, nurses, all these people that we employ with such constant bouts of change.

[00:24:16] Grant: It’s personal. I don’t care how you can measure each and every way. Mm-hmm. The organizational change models that are out there are not gonna support the personal aspect side of that. Now, that’s not to say that organization change funnels are bad. I included in the top A, in my book for a reason. They’re very smart and they are brilliant at what they do, which is why I included them.

[00:24:34] Grant: But there is a missing gap. So many people when I’m talking with them, they’ll say, oh, what about this point in this model? And I said, all I have to do is say What happens when in person rejects the change? The model’s broken. Yeah, because you can’t go any further. You’re not gonna try to assess if they have the skills, you’re not gonna try to assess if they have the resources, et cetera.

[00:24:55] Grant: If they’ve evicted the change, you’re done. What are you gonna do then? And that [00:25:00] is the aha missing piece. And that’s where scared sell. What comes into play. So what I have learned throughout all of this is that if I am now going to roll out an organizational change within my entity, I will first use scared, sell what to update the people and make sure I have the people included.

[00:25:18] Grant: Then I will come and apply an organizational change model with the people who are on board. So now you truly have the whole organization on board because again, you look at typical organizational change. No manager or supervisor has ever come to me, and I’m sure the same with you in your lengthy career and said, oh, David, do you agree with this change that I’m about ready to implement?

[00:25:38] Grant: Did you like the change and you support the change? And are you on board with the change? No, nobody says that to you. They come and say, Hey, we’ve got this model off the shit out at the library. We’re gonna go and put this through, or, or Bob over at xyz. Consultancy’s gonna come do this and you’re all gonna be on board.

[00:25:55] Grant: Well, there you go. But nobody’s asking the people who are supposed to execute the [00:26:00] change their feelings. And what happens to those who are rejecting it? Are they checking out? Are they change saboteurs? Leave. Will you ever know why if you use scared? So why you have a much better chance for success and that’s what I want to do.

[00:26:14] Grant: Yeah. You’re so 

[00:26:15] David: right. So if somebody was coming to you scared, so what and what advice or tips would you give them as their kind of, I suppose, engaging with it for the first 

[00:26:24] Grant: time? Yeah, well, unfortunately the app is coming out in May and that I’ve made it a one-stop shop, so literally it’ll be free for everybody to download, for individuals to use.

[00:26:35] Grant: If you’re in an organization, I have different versions for you, and we can customize it and put it into your company for that to work. And I wanna work with you to make sure that you and your leadership are on board to support that journey. But within the ad, you’ll have a section where you can learn about what is personal change first.

[00:26:53] Grant: First and foremost, I think that’s the most important part. Learning that you are the most important element when it comes to change and how can you manage [00:27:00] it. Then you’ll go into the scared quiz as you can take it. It’s a series of 30 questions, happens pretty quickly. A lot of them are very similar, but it’s on purpose to understand and pull out your thinking so I can give you a visual snapshot right back up to you and guide you where you could go.

[00:27:15] Grant: And then you can make your own cell a plan and it’s in black and white or color or however you choose on your phone. It’s there for you to help you make decisions. You have that. You also have Mike Book, which is Transforming Sales Management, lead Sales Teams through Change. It is the first sales book that is not just about sales.

[00:27:32] Grant: It is for everybody, and I think you said that earlier. This applies to just about anybody on the planet who can understand English at this moment, that it’s written in English, but will work on other languages very shortly. And I would say most important element is to give yourself that time to critically reflect unchange and don’t be afraid of it.

[00:27:51] Grant: We fear what we don’t understand and scared. So what will help you understand? 

[00:27:56] David: Yeah, I think that’s critically important. It’s taking the time to kind of [00:28:00] think about the change to engage in it and to do something, uh, for example, use the scared. So what model, rather than what quite a lot of people do is they kind of avoid anything to do with it because it’s too scary or it’s too overwhelming.

[00:28:14] David: Yeah. It’s that kind of engage with the process. You might more like to come outta that process in a completely different 

[00:28:22] Grant: place. Absolutely, and that’s what I want you to do. I want you to engage with your fear, but utilizing a framework that supports you so that you can go every step of the way and think about it through, because we all have change outcomes that we want.

[00:28:34] Grant: Some changings we just don’t like. We’re like, that’s not gonna be good for me. All right, well, so what do you want? What do you want it to be now if they think about it and put your plan together through just so that you can make it come to tuition. Sometimes what we find is a negative change can actually be positive.

[00:28:48] Grant: If we think about it first. Q moments, one opportunity can lead to another. Wouldn’t there be a shame if you missed that opportunity? Because you stuck yourself in assumption and you didn’t give yourself that opportunity to reflect [00:29:00] and think about it. That’s what this does, and once you learned how to do it, you won’t need the app anymore.

[00:29:05] Grant: You won’t need the framework. You’ll be, you know, I’ve been doing this for last since. 2018. Now, when I first started to put it together, I now just think it out loud. Okay, grant, am I surprised? Y I championing this? No. What action’s gonna do? Mike Gr a piece of paper. We’re gonna start writing it down, but now it’s a thought process.

[00:29:22] Grant: I’ve learned it. I’m living it, and I use it myself every single day. And eventually that’s where people will get to. That for me, is change success. If people have, have adopted it mentally and now it’s part of the critical framework. Brilliant. Now you have a way to combat change as happens to you in real world.

[00:29:39] Grant: You won’t need the app then. Yeah. 

[00:29:41] David: Fantastic. Brilliant. Grant, as always, it’s been great to talk to you and thank you so much for the time that you’ve given here. Where can people contact you and if they want to do, and when the book’s published, where can they get copy of the book and 

[00:29:55] Grant: the app? Of course, absolutely.

[00:29:57] Grant: I, I made it easy. Just go to scared [00:30:00] Everything is there. You actually, and you’ll find something, the Oxford View, our last podcast was there as well too. You’ll see some of the academic support there as well, and that’s where you will read about the books and also the app and my contact information is there as well too.

[00:30:15] Grant: So scared, so what? Dot com. Fantastic. Thank you so much. If you do go there, there’s a discount code for you to get the book as well. You can get the book wherever, Amazon, wherever. But if you go directly to Cog and we have a nice discount 

[00:30:28] David: for you. Nice. Wonderful. One last question. Are you up for coming into the membership and doing a session with the members around the model?

[00:30:36] Grant: Absolutely. I am an ad fan of the Art Oxford Radio and I am with you forever. So happy to be 

[00:30:42] David: brilliant. We’ll do a session with the members. Thank you so much, grant, this has been brilliant as always, and thank you. We’ll, we will talk again soon. 

[00:30:50] Grant: Sounds great. Take care. Take care. 

[00:30:54] David: Thank you for listening to the Oxford Review Podcast.

[00:30:57] David: For free research briefings, audio and [00:31:00] video research briefings, research, infographics, and a whole lot more, visit oxford hyphen That’s Oxford hyphen Please subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. It would mean a lot to us to have your feedback so that we can make this podcast even better 

[00:31:17] Grant: for you.

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